Rarely but wonderfully on FB an atheist is willing to engage me in dialogue. I gave up on Christian evangelicals long ago. The guy with the T shirt intrigues me; if I was there I’d risk asking him how he prays. His courtesy suggests he might be an open minded person.
That kind of thing always baffles me, when people so desperately want you to have the same religion as them. I've had that experience with people who follow A Course in Miracles.
I've also had people say "they're worried about my immortal soul" to which I reply "I don't worry about my immortal soul, and if I don't worry about it, you shouldn't either."
The afterlife is a mystery, and we can believe whatever we like. But imposing our beliefs on others is just not OK. It's very colonialist.
I appreciate and agree with all that you said but I got a chuckle out of the "It's very colonialist," which I had never thought of before. That's so very true. Thank you, Diana.
From personal experience a long time ago, it felt more secure with just the electrons. Perhaps this is Bruce's kind of spiritual protection? There is a lot of stuff 'out there' or is it 'in there'? Miracles seem more commonplace for me in my later years, but its hard to draw conclusions.
What do we sacrifice when we close ourselves off to possibilities?
Thanks for this excellent piece, Mark. How did you feel after your gym encounter with "Peggy Sue"?
There's a gentleman who walks his golden retriever around the harbor everyday. He wears a t-shirt that says "Can I pray for you?" He's very friendly, yet never intrusive. We see him nearly every day and always exchange "Good morning" greetings. But he never initiates further engagement. He simply makes himself available if people ask.
Thanks Heather. I was having problems with my desktop which had added an "Update." Once I removed it, I'm back in business.
You asked a very good follow-up question. Usually, the ticket in life is to keep as many options open as possible. To close ourselves off sure does seem counter-productive.
You asked how I felt after the encounter with Peggy Sue. I think I felt vindicated for not trying to reach out more often in hopes of finding common ground. Earlier on, in one of my - "better listening" posts - I said, when we encounter brick walls of resistance it's better to just walk around them. Peggy Sue was a case in point.
Oh that strikes me as so beautiful, Heather, to be asked if he can pray for you... but asking in the least intrusive way to ask. Just a signal of caring, that he’s wearing!
I agree with you whole heartedly. What could be less intrusive than an offer to pray for someone - HOWEVER, in 2024, no one should assume anyone is benign. Testing the waters is always good.
Yes! I always test the waters, and ask my Christian friends when they are upset about something, “Would you like my Unitarian prayers?” One funny note about differences in religions, once I was called a “Christian infidel” by the relatives of a Muslim friend of mine. I was thrilled!! - because when I was growing up, my family had received various pressures to be Christian to fit in, and we were criticized that we were Unitarian and therefore supposedly “Godless” or humanist. So the experience of being assumed to be Christian by my friend’s relatives felt strangely healing of that past. Now most people in our country are much more accepting of a diversity of beliefs, thankfully.
Yes, it's like 'the teacher appears when the student is ready.' Plus, even though I haven't engaged with him other than the friendly morning greeting, it brightens my day every time I walk past him and his jaunty retriever. So there's that....
I have an uncommonly open belief - I do -> "consider that there might be some divine mystery out there that we just don’t understand". In fact, I have my own personal story related to how I ended up with my husband of 35 years. I don't doubt there was something going on that brought us together after I had "challenged" God - "if there were the perfect person for me, I'd marry again". He even came with an unmistakable sign that only I would understand but one that I've never doubted.
Thanks Tara for the encouragement. I debated writing the story about the woman last week since it would be so one sided but then BINGO, the more recent encounter knocked on my door..
Thank you all for your support and feedback. Unfortunately, as of 1pm CST I'm unable to "reply" to any comments directly. If any author with substack has encountered this issue before, please let me know how you solved it.
Mark, thank you for this open-hearted, open-minded piece! Re Heather’s question “what do we sacrifice when we close ourselves off to possibilities”, as a Unitarian, our church embraces all possibilities. Our only creed is freedom of belief, and social responsibility. In our services there is so much spirituality and beauty of thought, and so much reverence for life and for whatever the source of life is, and we have as many different beliefs as there are people in the pews. I realize that’s not nourishing for some, that lack of certainty. We’re mostly just questioning honestly, with reverence for this whole world and creation, and most Unitarians don’t proselytize because we have more questions than answers ourselves.
Imagine the different world we would live in if - "freedom of belief, and social responsibility." were the driving forces behind church membership. The soft sell welcoming of people to a church is one thing. Pressuring them to attend or join is another.
You're welcome Karen, and thank you for sharing. "Freedom of belief" is critical if we're ever going to get along in a sustainable way. The Unitarian churches that my wife and I have gone to were very open to any and all beliefs except when Christianity was mentioned. However, this was NOT the case in Boston where the first UU church was founded.
As with any churches that we've attended, some things are better in some churches and some things aren't as good. As long as they're made up of flawed human beings, that will be the case.
BTW, the "more questions than answers" point is so well taken.
I agree re some things aren’t as good and some things are better, in most churches. A new minister to our Unitarian church took a look at us in the congregation and said “What a motley crew!” And Unitarians do tend to be a motley crew. There’s probably less cohesiveness in some ways in Unitarian churches and less tradition, and less feeling of obedience or humility somehow, I have felt, compared to when I attended a Catholic Church with a friend and it all felt so ancient and ritualistic and almost more Holy… Hard to pinpoint exactly.
My in-law's were Unitarians and my husband and I were married by their good friend who was a Unitarian minister (Lester Mondale, related to Walter). I have great respect for the values of that organization.
They tend to be very good people as are the United Church of Christ people - who I've heard referred to as "Unitarians - Lite." Both groups are certainly much more interested in Peace and Justice issues than are most mainline Christian Churches.
Although I know there are progressives in the Church of Christ fold, my experience with my dad's adoptive parents was of a very conservative, fundamentalist strain of that denomination. But I have read of some much more liberal also related to that denomination.
I'm admittedly relatively new to the UCofC, but my hunch is that it's progressed faster than any other Christian denominations. I honestly have no idea what other churches would have been like especially thirty or forty years ago.
My last experience would have been over 20 years ago. I do know they actually changed churches when my grandparents long time church became too progressive. I had to get permission to speak when my grandparents died and remember once being there and my agnostic husband was asked to pick a hymn and I tried to do it for him and was shut down. Oh my - misogyny much.
So many things are and have been changing, for some way too fast, and for others way too slowly. Unfortunately, misogyny is a problem so entrenched that it could take many generations to make a major dent in it. As we've seen, churches can add to or distract from the problem.
Awww that’s beautiful. So many of the more fundamentalist religions don’t respect us. At my husband and my wedding in our Unitarian church, one of my good friends who is Christian told me later that she was tuning out the wedding service and constantly praying to Jesus for our marriage. I reassured her that was fine with me, Unitarians believe in freedom of belief, and I’m glad she felt free!
"Tuning Out" sure suggests a bit of a closed mind but good that they even attended your wedding, and that they were comfortable enough to make the comment.
"...reverence for life and for whatever the source of life is..." Yes, Karen, WHATEVER the source of life is. I believe that no one really knows any more than I do about who or what the Giver of Gifts is. As Mark says, I may not understand it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But the knowledge I am open to is not in any ancient book. Of that I am sure. It is in a book that has not yet been written. Only one woman's opinion.
Thanks Sharron, I would agree that "Knowledge" and ancient books don't go together. However, regarding wisdom and compassion, words attributed to Christ are in a class of their own. And that's in spite of being translated and "interpreted" countless times. Those ideas will continue to escape into my blog posts because they have influenced so much of the way I think and act on life's challenges.
I grew up in the heydays of the Charistnatic 90's; Pentacostal was too mild for my church. I remember all the sermons and the visitng pastors who would remark on how, if you left the grocery store without witnessing to at least 5 people and leading 1 to Christ, you were a horrible Christian. (But seriously: what overworked and exhausted cashier wants a windbag holding up her line?) There is this thought mentality, in many churches, that evangelism = answered prayers. If you are not actively witnessing and looking right, then God isn't interested in your prayers. Or, if you ignore a sign, then He will deliberately block the answer.
The logic would be as follows: He rememberd my name, which meant the first time we met, I was supposed to speak into his life, and failed. Now he is coming into my life again, and again, so God is practically stamping this sign on my brain. He says he is praying for my dad, but we all have different ideas about prayer, so God has placed him here so I can help him understand true prayer. The Holy Spirit is leading him to me, without him even knowing it, and I cannot screw this up. God has formed this connection and I have an obligation.
This creates, as you found out, an overbearing and domineering situation. I saw myself, and far too many other people, in her speech, before unlearning man made traditions and interpretations. I am not defending her actions, and clearly she was wrong, but honestly? I am not sure she could have stopped, even if she wanted to. Some denominations teach you how to hound people to heaven; they got results in the good ole days when escape was much harder because of technology, and societies expectations.
Far too big a question for the likes of me. And, I venture to say, definitely too big for a Substack comment. But I sure do appreciate your last paragraph, Mark. It's a good question.
I agree!, I like the last paragraph as well, especially the phrase “our slowly developing minds”. Many people don’t want to admit that truth, I think, but we’re so much less developed and evolved than we think we are. Perhaps we’ll merge with A.I. and our minds will evolve and develop exponentially.
I thought they did that even without the KKK's assistance - Having gone to UU churches for years with fond memories, I will add that asking questions is all good but accepting answers without a thought, all bad. When we went to the UU church in Birmingham, we learned they had become a safe haven for civil rights activists with armed guards due to all the death threats so many of them had faced.
Rarely but wonderfully on FB an atheist is willing to engage me in dialogue. I gave up on Christian evangelicals long ago. The guy with the T shirt intrigues me; if I was there I’d risk asking him how he prays. His courtesy suggests he might be an open minded person.
Interesting, but not surprising.
That kind of thing always baffles me, when people so desperately want you to have the same religion as them. I've had that experience with people who follow A Course in Miracles.
I've also had people say "they're worried about my immortal soul" to which I reply "I don't worry about my immortal soul, and if I don't worry about it, you shouldn't either."
The afterlife is a mystery, and we can believe whatever we like. But imposing our beliefs on others is just not OK. It's very colonialist.
I appreciate and agree with all that you said but I got a chuckle out of the "It's very colonialist," which I had never thought of before. That's so very true. Thank you, Diana.
From personal experience a long time ago, it felt more secure with just the electrons. Perhaps this is Bruce's kind of spiritual protection? There is a lot of stuff 'out there' or is it 'in there'? Miracles seem more commonplace for me in my later years, but its hard to draw conclusions.
Thanks for you input Philip.
What do we sacrifice when we close ourselves off to possibilities?
Thanks for this excellent piece, Mark. How did you feel after your gym encounter with "Peggy Sue"?
There's a gentleman who walks his golden retriever around the harbor everyday. He wears a t-shirt that says "Can I pray for you?" He's very friendly, yet never intrusive. We see him nearly every day and always exchange "Good morning" greetings. But he never initiates further engagement. He simply makes himself available if people ask.
Thanks Heather. I was having problems with my desktop which had added an "Update." Once I removed it, I'm back in business.
You asked a very good follow-up question. Usually, the ticket in life is to keep as many options open as possible. To close ourselves off sure does seem counter-productive.
Yay. Glad you're back!
A closed mind is a closed heart. 💚
You asked how I felt after the encounter with Peggy Sue. I think I felt vindicated for not trying to reach out more often in hopes of finding common ground. Earlier on, in one of my - "better listening" posts - I said, when we encounter brick walls of resistance it's better to just walk around them. Peggy Sue was a case in point.
Oh that strikes me as so beautiful, Heather, to be asked if he can pray for you... but asking in the least intrusive way to ask. Just a signal of caring, that he’s wearing!
I agree with you whole heartedly. What could be less intrusive than an offer to pray for someone - HOWEVER, in 2024, no one should assume anyone is benign. Testing the waters is always good.
Yes! I always test the waters, and ask my Christian friends when they are upset about something, “Would you like my Unitarian prayers?” One funny note about differences in religions, once I was called a “Christian infidel” by the relatives of a Muslim friend of mine. I was thrilled!! - because when I was growing up, my family had received various pressures to be Christian to fit in, and we were criticized that we were Unitarian and therefore supposedly “Godless” or humanist. So the experience of being assumed to be Christian by my friend’s relatives felt strangely healing of that past. Now most people in our country are much more accepting of a diversity of beliefs, thankfully.
What's not to love? That's a great story Karen.
Yes, it's like 'the teacher appears when the student is ready.' Plus, even though I haven't engaged with him other than the friendly morning greeting, it brightens my day every time I walk past him and his jaunty retriever. So there's that....
Thanks Heather for sharing - it brightens my day just reading about it, including the jaunty dog part.
I have an uncommonly open belief - I do -> "consider that there might be some divine mystery out there that we just don’t understand". In fact, I have my own personal story related to how I ended up with my husband of 35 years. I don't doubt there was something going on that brought us together after I had "challenged" God - "if there were the perfect person for me, I'd marry again". He even came with an unmistakable sign that only I would understand but one that I've never doubted.
I like the story and the insight there Deborah.
Wow!
Very good reading to put these two stories together. It’s good to know you are sowing mustard seeds in so many places.
Thanks Tara for the encouragement. I debated writing the story about the woman last week since it would be so one sided but then BINGO, the more recent encounter knocked on my door..
Just right!
Thank you all for your support and feedback. Unfortunately, as of 1pm CST I'm unable to "reply" to any comments directly. If any author with substack has encountered this issue before, please let me know how you solved it.
Mark, thank you for this open-hearted, open-minded piece! Re Heather’s question “what do we sacrifice when we close ourselves off to possibilities”, as a Unitarian, our church embraces all possibilities. Our only creed is freedom of belief, and social responsibility. In our services there is so much spirituality and beauty of thought, and so much reverence for life and for whatever the source of life is, and we have as many different beliefs as there are people in the pews. I realize that’s not nourishing for some, that lack of certainty. We’re mostly just questioning honestly, with reverence for this whole world and creation, and most Unitarians don’t proselytize because we have more questions than answers ourselves.
Imagine the different world we would live in if - "freedom of belief, and social responsibility." were the driving forces behind church membership. The soft sell welcoming of people to a church is one thing. Pressuring them to attend or join is another.
You're welcome Karen, and thank you for sharing. "Freedom of belief" is critical if we're ever going to get along in a sustainable way. The Unitarian churches that my wife and I have gone to were very open to any and all beliefs except when Christianity was mentioned. However, this was NOT the case in Boston where the first UU church was founded.
As with any churches that we've attended, some things are better in some churches and some things aren't as good. As long as they're made up of flawed human beings, that will be the case.
BTW, the "more questions than answers" point is so well taken.
I agree re some things aren’t as good and some things are better, in most churches. A new minister to our Unitarian church took a look at us in the congregation and said “What a motley crew!” And Unitarians do tend to be a motley crew. There’s probably less cohesiveness in some ways in Unitarian churches and less tradition, and less feeling of obedience or humility somehow, I have felt, compared to when I attended a Catholic Church with a friend and it all felt so ancient and ritualistic and almost more Holy… Hard to pinpoint exactly.
I think at least in the UU churches that we've attended, it's been more of an allegiance to the church community than to any theology.
Q: What do you get when you marry a Unitarian and a Jehovah’s Witness?
A: A couple who knock on your door and don’t know what to say.
Funny indeed Steve. Are there many more where that one came from?
I love this joke!! 😂 There’s some truth 😅
My in-law's were Unitarians and my husband and I were married by their good friend who was a Unitarian minister (Lester Mondale, related to Walter). I have great respect for the values of that organization.
They tend to be very good people as are the United Church of Christ people - who I've heard referred to as "Unitarians - Lite." Both groups are certainly much more interested in Peace and Justice issues than are most mainline Christian Churches.
Oh I’ll have to learn more about United Church of Christ!
Although I know there are progressives in the Church of Christ fold, my experience with my dad's adoptive parents was of a very conservative, fundamentalist strain of that denomination. But I have read of some much more liberal also related to that denomination.
I'm admittedly relatively new to the UCofC, but my hunch is that it's progressed faster than any other Christian denominations. I honestly have no idea what other churches would have been like especially thirty or forty years ago.
My last experience would have been over 20 years ago. I do know they actually changed churches when my grandparents long time church became too progressive. I had to get permission to speak when my grandparents died and remember once being there and my agnostic husband was asked to pick a hymn and I tried to do it for him and was shut down. Oh my - misogyny much.
So many things are and have been changing, for some way too fast, and for others way too slowly. Unfortunately, misogyny is a problem so entrenched that it could take many generations to make a major dent in it. As we've seen, churches can add to or distract from the problem.
Awww that’s beautiful. So many of the more fundamentalist religions don’t respect us. At my husband and my wedding in our Unitarian church, one of my good friends who is Christian told me later that she was tuning out the wedding service and constantly praying to Jesus for our marriage. I reassured her that was fine with me, Unitarians believe in freedom of belief, and I’m glad she felt free!
"Tuning Out" sure suggests a bit of a closed mind but good that they even attended your wedding, and that they were comfortable enough to make the comment.
"...reverence for life and for whatever the source of life is..." Yes, Karen, WHATEVER the source of life is. I believe that no one really knows any more than I do about who or what the Giver of Gifts is. As Mark says, I may not understand it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But the knowledge I am open to is not in any ancient book. Of that I am sure. It is in a book that has not yet been written. Only one woman's opinion.
Thanks Sharron, I would agree that "Knowledge" and ancient books don't go together. However, regarding wisdom and compassion, words attributed to Christ are in a class of their own. And that's in spite of being translated and "interpreted" countless times. Those ideas will continue to escape into my blog posts because they have influenced so much of the way I think and act on life's challenges.
I love that.
Oh you are totally on my wavelength!!!
I grew up in the heydays of the Charistnatic 90's; Pentacostal was too mild for my church. I remember all the sermons and the visitng pastors who would remark on how, if you left the grocery store without witnessing to at least 5 people and leading 1 to Christ, you were a horrible Christian. (But seriously: what overworked and exhausted cashier wants a windbag holding up her line?) There is this thought mentality, in many churches, that evangelism = answered prayers. If you are not actively witnessing and looking right, then God isn't interested in your prayers. Or, if you ignore a sign, then He will deliberately block the answer.
The logic would be as follows: He rememberd my name, which meant the first time we met, I was supposed to speak into his life, and failed. Now he is coming into my life again, and again, so God is practically stamping this sign on my brain. He says he is praying for my dad, but we all have different ideas about prayer, so God has placed him here so I can help him understand true prayer. The Holy Spirit is leading him to me, without him even knowing it, and I cannot screw this up. God has formed this connection and I have an obligation.
This creates, as you found out, an overbearing and domineering situation. I saw myself, and far too many other people, in her speech, before unlearning man made traditions and interpretations. I am not defending her actions, and clearly she was wrong, but honestly? I am not sure she could have stopped, even if she wanted to. Some denominations teach you how to hound people to heaven; they got results in the good ole days when escape was much harder because of technology, and societies expectations.
*society's
Far too big a question for the likes of me. And, I venture to say, definitely too big for a Substack comment. But I sure do appreciate your last paragraph, Mark. It's a good question.
I agree!, I like the last paragraph as well, especially the phrase “our slowly developing minds”. Many people don’t want to admit that truth, I think, but we’re so much less developed and evolved than we think we are. Perhaps we’ll merge with A.I. and our minds will evolve and develop exponentially.
We can only hope.
Did you hear about the Unitarian chapter of the Ku Klux Klan? They burn a question mark on their own lawn.
I thought they did that even without the KKK's assistance - Having gone to UU churches for years with fond memories, I will add that asking questions is all good but accepting answers without a thought, all bad. When we went to the UU church in Birmingham, we learned they had become a safe haven for civil rights activists with armed guards due to all the death threats so many of them had faced.