This was an excellent post Mark. I have struggled with the actual words and the story, although they've provided comfort. What I do know is 'something happened' which was significant and as a result the world changed. I am grateful to the people who came after that took the words of the gospels and became other important figures and examples of service to others and a higher good. I wish we could all discover this in ourselves as we grapple with what's happening in today's world. What I have noticed after reading the bible from the beginning, is that history seems to be repeating itself and has since the beginning of time. I had to ask myself, have we all learned nothing from history? Whether it be from the bible or history books. And yet, here we are again. And again. And again.
Thank you so much Kim for your thoughtful response. Your comment "something happened" is exactly how far I would go with conviction. I really suspect it was unprecedented and mixed with some mysterious and divine component, but how much or what specifically, who knows.
I had a Presbyterian minister probably twenty years ago who described our faith journey as being similar to a spiral. Periodically we come around to almost the same spot but a little better position. I wonder if it's analogous to society evolving ever so slowly - though it seems like not at all. You're lamenting that history seems to be repeating itself is so understandable, but I wonder if for instance there's more resistance to the types of violence we've been seeing even if it's been toned down from the sixties and Vietnam. I know it's baby steps at best but I like to imaging on some level that we are maturing as a society - maybe someday we'll break through the teenage phase.
If we learn anything from history, is that powers that be certainly are very interested in it's latest edition! Any contravailing opinions can put you on the short track with leadership. It is not surprising that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John had less than a stellar PR department! Rome was certainly less than hospitable at someone else having the last word.
That the humankind narrative began to pivot on concepts of forgiveness, crossing of cultural barriers, a radically new view that the soul could be sick as well as the body, and well redemption, the buying back of broken lives through faith in this Christ. It was and is a spiritual, an above the natural order, or metaphysical intervention and transaction.
For those who ply in this theology; it is not simply that he came to make man better. Rather, man is broken, fallen, unable to save himself. He came, as a Savior. That's what we needed. It seems too simple. Libraries are filled with trying to unpackage the mystery of this (amazing) grace.
I appreciate your thoughts JM - your mentioning things like the spiritual aspects, metaphysical intervention and particularly GRACE, remind me of all the different directions this topic could have taken. Being ever mindful of divine mystery and grace are gifts that I need to give more attention to. Thank you. Stay well and have a Merry Christmas.
Yes, my mind went all kind of directions. I particularly like apologetics, and do like engaging. But at the end of the day, there is a ton of mystery. It does become less about the facts and more reaching outside ourselves. I always appreciate your kind and thoughtful discourse.
Spot on, Mark. The 19th century “search for the historical Jesus” is a wild goose chase. At this late date we can only discover what did *not* happen. There’s no Roman record of a worldwide census under Augustus. If there was, the logistics of making millions of people travel to their city of family origin would’ve been impossible. David lived about 1000 years before Joseph; he’s as much “of the House of David” as we are “of the House of Charlemagne” (both famously had many kids by many women). No record of Herod slaughtering babies, either.
You make the essential point: *something happened* so that some forty years after the crucifixion a man we call “Mark” would write, “The beginning of the Good News of Jesus Messiah, the Son of God.” We cannot recover “the facts”, but we can enter into the mystery.
Hi Steve, - this is the second time I'm trying to write a response to your comment - the first one just disappeared. Anyway, I'm so glad to have your input here because your theological background adds some credence that I'm not barking up some dying tree out in left field. That was also an interesting observation about the House of David being so far removed.
Your comment "something happened" seems to be a viable point of agreement for people who aren't glued to unverifiable historical speculations. Thanks again
When reading the Gospels, you have to remember the audience., particularly in the three Synaptic Gospels. Matthew wrote to Jews, Mark to Romans, Luke to a single Greek individual. Luke wrote as a Greek physician, Matthew as a Jew, Mark as a cousin of Peter and fellow worker with Rome (probably).
The discontinuity can be determined when evaluated through the lens of who, why, where, when. But, that doesn't make it easier to logically understand. I've read the Bible through more times than I can count; I've read books condemning it, books justifying it, books explaining it.
I've walked away from my faith, and returned to it with even more conviction.
I can't justify the confusion; I can't unscramble the versions. And Christianity is not the only religion to be hijacked: every major religion, monotheistic or not, has been militarized. We are humans. We translate religion through our human agendas.
Christianity was the first world phenomenon to announce equality - true and impartial. It denounced a great many common practices, such as infanticide and slavery. It taught respect for all people.
Humans, very quickly, got sidetracked, and manipulated Scripture to create their own worldview. It was evil and sinful; it doesn't tarnish Scripture.
I believe in inerrancy and infallibility simply because I have to have a standard that isn't carnate, mutable, and finite. Figuring out how that standard transcends my world is frustrating, often, because where do I end, and He begin?
Thank you, Joelle, for your very thoughtful and informed response. You make a whole lot of sense, and I can relate to your leaving and going back to "religion" with its value and liabilities. I especially appreciate your comments about religions being hijacked and translated through human agendas - That is right on the money and more evident today than ever, in my lifetime at least.
This was an excellent post Mark. I have struggled with the actual words and the story, although they've provided comfort. What I do know is 'something happened' which was significant and as a result the world changed. I am grateful to the people who came after that took the words of the gospels and became other important figures and examples of service to others and a higher good. I wish we could all discover this in ourselves as we grapple with what's happening in today's world. What I have noticed after reading the bible from the beginning, is that history seems to be repeating itself and has since the beginning of time. I had to ask myself, have we all learned nothing from history? Whether it be from the bible or history books. And yet, here we are again. And again. And again.
Thank you so much Kim for your thoughtful response. Your comment "something happened" is exactly how far I would go with conviction. I really suspect it was unprecedented and mixed with some mysterious and divine component, but how much or what specifically, who knows.
I had a Presbyterian minister probably twenty years ago who described our faith journey as being similar to a spiral. Periodically we come around to almost the same spot but a little better position. I wonder if it's analogous to society evolving ever so slowly - though it seems like not at all. You're lamenting that history seems to be repeating itself is so understandable, but I wonder if for instance there's more resistance to the types of violence we've been seeing even if it's been toned down from the sixties and Vietnam. I know it's baby steps at best but I like to imaging on some level that we are maturing as a society - maybe someday we'll break through the teenage phase.
And , Merry Christmas Kim
Merry Christmas to you too Mark. It's been wonderful to get to know you through your writing here on Substack. Here's to 2024!
Thanks Kim, it's also been great getting to know you through yours and these periodic discussions of weightier matters.
Jesus and the New Testament are certainly very different teachings from the commandments of his sky father, God.
I like the "Sky Father." That's where heaven is, on a special platform - "Way Up High" to quote a former president who waxed religious the other day.
If we learn anything from history, is that powers that be certainly are very interested in it's latest edition! Any contravailing opinions can put you on the short track with leadership. It is not surprising that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John had less than a stellar PR department! Rome was certainly less than hospitable at someone else having the last word.
That the humankind narrative began to pivot on concepts of forgiveness, crossing of cultural barriers, a radically new view that the soul could be sick as well as the body, and well redemption, the buying back of broken lives through faith in this Christ. It was and is a spiritual, an above the natural order, or metaphysical intervention and transaction.
For those who ply in this theology; it is not simply that he came to make man better. Rather, man is broken, fallen, unable to save himself. He came, as a Savior. That's what we needed. It seems too simple. Libraries are filled with trying to unpackage the mystery of this (amazing) grace.
Wonder, mystery and awe; I'm with you Mark!
I appreciate your thoughts JM - your mentioning things like the spiritual aspects, metaphysical intervention and particularly GRACE, remind me of all the different directions this topic could have taken. Being ever mindful of divine mystery and grace are gifts that I need to give more attention to. Thank you. Stay well and have a Merry Christmas.
Yes, my mind went all kind of directions. I particularly like apologetics, and do like engaging. But at the end of the day, there is a ton of mystery. It does become less about the facts and more reaching outside ourselves. I always appreciate your kind and thoughtful discourse.
Even if it was only grace we learned, it would be enough.
Spot on, Mark. The 19th century “search for the historical Jesus” is a wild goose chase. At this late date we can only discover what did *not* happen. There’s no Roman record of a worldwide census under Augustus. If there was, the logistics of making millions of people travel to their city of family origin would’ve been impossible. David lived about 1000 years before Joseph; he’s as much “of the House of David” as we are “of the House of Charlemagne” (both famously had many kids by many women). No record of Herod slaughtering babies, either.
You make the essential point: *something happened* so that some forty years after the crucifixion a man we call “Mark” would write, “The beginning of the Good News of Jesus Messiah, the Son of God.” We cannot recover “the facts”, but we can enter into the mystery.
Hi Steve, - this is the second time I'm trying to write a response to your comment - the first one just disappeared. Anyway, I'm so glad to have your input here because your theological background adds some credence that I'm not barking up some dying tree out in left field. That was also an interesting observation about the House of David being so far removed.
Your comment "something happened" seems to be a viable point of agreement for people who aren't glued to unverifiable historical speculations. Thanks again
When reading the Gospels, you have to remember the audience., particularly in the three Synaptic Gospels. Matthew wrote to Jews, Mark to Romans, Luke to a single Greek individual. Luke wrote as a Greek physician, Matthew as a Jew, Mark as a cousin of Peter and fellow worker with Rome (probably).
The discontinuity can be determined when evaluated through the lens of who, why, where, when. But, that doesn't make it easier to logically understand. I've read the Bible through more times than I can count; I've read books condemning it, books justifying it, books explaining it.
I've walked away from my faith, and returned to it with even more conviction.
I can't justify the confusion; I can't unscramble the versions. And Christianity is not the only religion to be hijacked: every major religion, monotheistic or not, has been militarized. We are humans. We translate religion through our human agendas.
Christianity was the first world phenomenon to announce equality - true and impartial. It denounced a great many common practices, such as infanticide and slavery. It taught respect for all people.
Humans, very quickly, got sidetracked, and manipulated Scripture to create their own worldview. It was evil and sinful; it doesn't tarnish Scripture.
I believe in inerrancy and infallibility simply because I have to have a standard that isn't carnate, mutable, and finite. Figuring out how that standard transcends my world is frustrating, often, because where do I end, and He begin?
What is man made, what is true?
Thank you, Joelle, for your very thoughtful and informed response. You make a whole lot of sense, and I can relate to your leaving and going back to "religion" with its value and liabilities. I especially appreciate your comments about religions being hijacked and translated through human agendas - That is right on the money and more evident today than ever, in my lifetime at least.